BALTIMORE — The charm of Baltimore is that it’s a port city whose port happens to sit on the Chesapeake.
That means it melds the rich ethnic tapestry inherent to most port cities with the Tidewater South heritage of the Bay. It’s why Maryland has been called the southernmost state of the North and northernmost state of the South.
Which brings us to crab cakes — the beautiful swimmers that are the Bay’s bounty. And, to be exact, the softball-sized behemoths at Koco’s.
Koco’s is short for Kocofinis, a classic Baltimore confluence. The Greek American family opened the northeast Baltimore crab house in 1985, and the most important thing to know about this melding is that it’s a family-friendly joint. They don’t use the F word: filler.
Their signature dish is more crab than cake, which is why Governor Wes Moore met me here.
Full disclosure, I try to pick the locales where we shoot “On the Road.” But I deferred to Moore, an adopted son of Baltimore, in this case and I’m glad I did.
First, because the crab cakes were superb. But also because Moore was my first guest who cleaned nearly his entire plate — and had a pint of Natural Bohemian to go with it.
Crabs and a Natty Boh — pure Balmer, as locals pronounce their city.
That accent. It’s so distinctive. You knew on The Wire the difference between the real locals and the actors because no actor can do justice to that voice. The only shame is David Simon didn’t do another season with more political characters because few cities of Baltimore’s size have produced as many and from, fittingly, so many backgrounds.
There are the Greeks, former Senator Paul Sarbanes, former Rep. John Sarbanes and, yes, Spiro Agnew. There’s the D’Alesandro family of Little Italy (now ruling from splendid exile in Pacific Heights). And don’t forget the proud Jewish tradition of the Cardins — Ben’s father and uncle were state legislators before Ben became speaker in Annapolis and on to the House and Senate
Respect must also be paid to the Poles and their favorite daughter, Barbara Mikulski, a trailblazing senator.
And because Baltimore sits at either edge of Northern city and coastal South, there’s also a storied tradition of Black leadership. Yet the most prominent Black public figure from here is not a politician but a jurist: Thurgood Marshall.
That could change in 2028. Or later. It depends when Moore runs and if his lights-up-a-room promise can be matched with Cal Ripken-esque consistency and reliability.
We discussed his readiness to jump into the redistricting wars, why he’s exhausted by the who-lost-2024 conversation, and his own future plans.
Oh, and we discussed one other glorious convergence, the one that resulted in the conception of his son. Yes, you read that right — but you’ll have to watch the full video on YouTube or listen to it as a podcast for the whole story.
The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Hey, folks. It’s Jonathan Martin. We’re back on the road, northeast Baltimore, Harford Road. What else are we doing here? Crab cakes.
When someone says, ‘Where’s the best crab cake in Baltimore?’ and if they tell you anywhere downtown or whatever like that, you can respectfully look them in the face and say, ‘You’re not from Baltimore then’ because this is the best place in the entire state — in the entire country — to come and get a very real crab cake.
Already making news: I mean, it’s rare for a Maryland politician to say flatly where the best crab cake is. I was going to press you on that later.
It’s easy. I guess I’m not a politician because it is very easy for me. It is Koco’s. And here’s my beef. When you go to other places around the country, and you see on the menu “Maryland crab cake,” it is so offensive because it’s not real. Because a lot of places you go for Maryland crab cake, they put vegetables in it, breadcrumbs. Like, no. This is a Maryland crab cake, and if it’s not this, then it’s just not real. So, honestly for me, there’s no question about it, where the best one is.
I always say I wasn’t a Baltimorean by birth, I’m a Baltimorean by choice. I was actually born down in Takoma Park, right down in Maryland. When I was young, my dad died in front of me when I was three, I went to go live with my grandparents. My grandfather was a minister, and my grandmother was a public school teacher. Their house was barely big enough for them, but they figured out a way to make it big enough for all of us when tragedy struck.
My mother, when I was 14-years-old, got her first job that gave her benefits, and that job was at a place called the Annie E. Casey Foundation, which was moving to Baltimore. And I just fell in love with this place. I remember early on when you’re going out, and you go to a hot spot, if you talk to real Baltimoreans and you say, ‘Where should you go get a crab cake?’, the answer’s always very easy: ‘Don’t go downtown, go to Hartford Road and go hit Koco’s.’
Ever since then, this has just been my spot. I tell people all the time, no matter where you come from around the country, you want to come to Baltimore, and they’re like, ‘Where should I go eat?’ First stop, come up to Koco’s.
I was at your inauguration in January of ’23. I remember you had quite the crowd there, including Oprah Winfrey, who spoke, and it was a big day.
Good Baltimore girl.
She and Gayle King were memorably broadcasters. WBAL, is that right?
WBAL.
So, explain to me how you got big majorities in both chambers at Annapolis. You’re a Democratic governor. Why haven’t you been able to get this reapportionment bill through both chambers, especially in this moment where, for a lot of Democrats, this is a five-alarm fire?
It is a five-alarm fire. It’s a five-alarm fire for this country.
So why can’t you guys change the maps in Maryland?
In Maryland, it’s unique because we don’t have the same luxury of California or Virginia in some cases, where you go to the people with it. This is a decision that exclusively has to be done by the members of the Maryland General Assembly. The thing that I repeatedly push for, the thing that I talked about in my State of the State, the thing that I will continue to say is: I’m never going to stop fighting for our democracy, particularly when I see our democracy completely under attack in the way it’s under attack now.
Where we are watching, and again, it’s not even just about the president deciding which Republican states should redistrict. It’s not just about the fact that we’re watching this happen in Texas and North Carolina and Missouri. It is about the fall of the Voting Rights Act. It is about the idea that he’s trying to get rid of mail-in balloting. It is about the fact that he is trying to say he wants to get access to our ballot boxes. This is a complete assault on the November elections and then beyond.
And so, it is my job, and frankly, I think it is the responsibility for Maryland, for our General Assembly, and for every other state who has the option to say, ‘Why should certain states go through a process of determining in mid-decade what their state’s going to do, but then other states are supposed to sit on their hands?’
Does the Supreme Court opinion, followed by the Supreme Court of Virginia striking down their redraw, give you a new urgency and a new opportunity to get this done in Maryland?
I think so.
The hold-up is a state senator named Bill Ferguson, and I think most folks don’t know this, but obviously, in Maryland, this is a big story. He’s obviously on the ballot this year. You want to see him act. You’re in negotiations with him. Has he found Jesus yet, do you think, on the way to this map?
I talk with him often, and we still work very closely on a collection of different issues. I’m getting ready to sign a bill on utility relief. We’ve now provided $300 million on utility relief to our people. We just signed a housing package that’s going to now build more housing around transit-oriented development — the most transformational housing bill that this state has gotten done in years.
So, we’re still working very closely on that. But where I am before with him on this is where I’ve always been. We don’t have a choice but to act, particularly when we’re watching the greatest assault on Black voter representation around the country that we have seen in generations. That we are watching a president try to manipulate and change the rules in the middle of the game. And so, I would urge him and his colleagues to be able to take this moment seriously.
He hasn’t gotten there yet, and one point of leverage that you do have — this is Maryland politics. Politics is played traditionally in a contact sport kind of fashion here. He’s on the ballot this year. He’s up for reelection. My understanding is he has a primary challenge. You haven’t endorsed him yet. Is that something that you would consider, which is if he doesn’t deliver on the maps, supporting his opponent?
I think he really knows how much I need for the Senate to take seriously — this moment. I think he is very clear about how important I think this is, particularly when we’re watching. The Voting Rights Act was one of the most important pieces of the entire Civil Rights Movement. Because when the Civil Rights Movement happened, we saw how they were basically saying that we were intentionally disenfranchising people because of the color of their skin. That we had entire jurisdictions and entire places in not just the South, but primarily in the South, where you had people who did not count, essentially. And the Voting Rights Act was passed in order to make sure that if we were really going to be a representative democracy, then that needed to mean that your democracy needed to be representative. And that has now been struck down. And I think that this is something that we cannot sit there and sit quiet about. And so, he’s crystal clear on where I am on this issue, and I am crystal clear that I’m not moving on it.
It sounds like you’re open to supporting his opponent if he doesn’t move. I just want to wrap this section with just a final question: Can you sit here today and guarantee Marylanders, guarantee Democrats across the country, that this fall, Maryland will in fact redraw its map for the House?
No, I think the thing I can guarantee is that Maryland knows they have a fighter as a governor, and I’m not moving on this.
You’ve been asked about the 2028 question before. I’ve seen the clips, and I think a bunch of times you were asked the question. You said flatly that you weren’t going to run for president.
Yeah.
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t keep the question open and say something to the effect of, ‘Well, it’s a long ways away’ or ‘I’m focused on my reelection’ or ‘I’ll get to that down the road.’ You said flatly, ‘No.’ Is that still where you are, or is this now a possibility that you could at least look at 2028, running for president?
As a person, I’m laser-focused on my mission.
There we go.
That’s how I’ve always been. And right now, I have a target that’s sitting in front of me right now. The target that’s sitting in front of me right now is I have an election in November — I don’t just want to win, I want the people of Maryland to send a message. And the other target that I have is, I gotta make sure my people are protected because right now we’re under assault. And so, when I say ‘I’m hungry, but I’m not thirsty,’ my definition of hungry is making sure you’re focusing on 2026. My definition of thirsty is making sure you’re focused on 2028.
Wow. Taking Wes Moore out of it for a minute and just talking about the party broadly, because you talk to Democrats across the state but also across the country, do you think Democrats want to move on from 2024?
Yes. I do. I mean, I’m exhausted by talking about how or why we lost and this and that. And obviously, it goes back to the whole point when people ask me about, ‘What do you think about an autopsy?’ My point is this: Release it, don’t release it, I don’t care. I really don’t. I’m like, ‘Listen, if you need a research report to know why we lost in 2024, then that’s actually part of the problem.’
Why’d you lose?
Well, because I think we didn’t engage people, and we did not deliver results with any form of speed. I just think that everything in our party cannot be a 12-year analysis. Everything in our party cannot be a ‘Let me do a seven-year commission on this.’ It’s like, listen, are you going to fix it or not?
You know who actually, who really got that was Donald Trump. He was a great vessel for the frustration, and I think we have got to stop this idea that if we just go through our process and go through a four-year study and analyze what happened, that somehow we’re going to make things better.
Like, no. If someone is saying, ‘I cannot afford to live in my neighborhood,’ I don’t want to hear you say, ‘Well, give me a five-year research report on that.’ And I think that has actually been part of the bigger problem the Democrats have had. You’ve gotta deliver results, man. And if you deliver results, you’re not going to have to go over an autopsy as to why you lost.
Kamala Harris obviously had a shortened period of time. But she ran, she lost. Your view is that she had her opportunity and that’s that. And the party should move forward.
Listen, I mean, she is one of the most accomplished elected officials of a generation. I think if she wants to run for president, she’s earned the right.
Sure.
And I think if she doesn’t want to run for president and she just wants to go off and live her life, she’s earned the right. I don’t think that that is something that we should be getting into because, frankly, she’s earned the right to do whatever the hell she wants to do next.
Is it racist or bigoted to say, ‘We gave her a shot, the party should move on and Kamala Harris should just wait for the next generation to come through?’
I can’t speak to people’s motivations as to why they would say that. I know I hear it, but I can’t speak to the motivations. But, what I do believe is that-
But you’re one of those Democrats who wants to move on, though, right?
Oh, I do. because I think people are exhausted. But honestly, here’s the thing. I do believe, if she chooses to run, I highly doubt she’s going to choose to run a race trying to relitigate 2024. You know what I mean?
But isn’t that inevitable, though? If she does run, that ’24 will come back up?
Is Donald Trump going to be on the ballot again?
If it’s up to Gavin Newsom, he wants to run against Trump forever! Democrats ran against Hoover for 20 years, man, you know?
One thing I always say is: Don’t let people that don’t matter too much, matter too much. You know what I mean? I understand the threat of Donald Trump. I see it every single day. Maryland has been under a greater assault than any state in this country.
DOGE in part-
Yes. Donald Trump and JD Vance have fired over 31,000 people in the past year. A year!
Last thing on ’24: How much does Harris own the loss, and how much does Biden own the loss in ’24?
I think President Biden made the right decision not to run.
It took him till July, governor.
Do I wish that people were close to him — do I wish they would’ve told him earlier? I do.
Do you regret not speaking up about that?
No, because I don’t think I had a voice or a say on it. I wasn’t around him every day. I wasn’t in the inner circle of the president.
Well, you’re a party leader, though. You could’ve said something, right? Governors, senators.
You know what? The interactions that I’ve had with the president was when we watched the key bridge collapse. In the middle of the night, amongst the first phone calls that I got was from the President of the United States. I get a call at 2:02 a.m. saying that a two-mile-long bridge was just hit by a ship the size of three football fields, and now 13 percent of my economy is shut down. And I cannot, and I will never forget how it felt being a relatively new governor in that moment and now worrying about ‘How am I going to get my state back on its feet?’ And, by the way, making sure that these six families that lost loved ones, that I can find their loved ones and bring them the closure that they needed.
One of the first calls I got was from the President of the United States, who says, ‘We’re going to be with you every step of the way.’ I’m never going to forget that. In that moment, he was not just what I needed; he was what Maryland needed.
And so, do I wish the people who were close to him and around him would’ve advised him to make a different decision? Absolutely. But I know that in the moment when we had one of our greatest trials in the history of our state, we had a president who was willing to be with us.
The reason I bring that up is because, having lived through ’23 and ’24, there were a lot of folks — governors, senators, House members — who privately didn’t want Biden to run again and wanted somebody else besides Kamala Harris to be the nominee. They didn’t want to say it out loud.
They should’ve said it.
I just wonder, are we heading into a similar situation in ’26, ’27, even into ’28, in which Democrats don’t want Kamala Harris to run again, but they’re scared to say it out loud because, ‘Well, she’s earned her opportunity to do what she wants and we can’t tell a Black woman not to run again, and I’m just going to let somebody else say it out loud.’ You know what I’m saying?
No, I totally know what you’re saying. But then, what I would say to them is this: Do I think that she has earned the right to run? 100 percent. And I think she is as qualified as anybody else to be able to get inside the race. But, if a person doesn’t feel that way, then say something. We should not be scared to be able to say our truth or to say what we think is going to be necessary and required.
Would she have a lock on Black voters in a primary if she does run, do you think?
No, I don’t think that anyone has a lock on anything because the elections haven’t started, and you’re asking a guy who was literally polling at 1 percent when I first started running for governor. You know what I mean? No one gave me a shot, but you know what? They also didn’t see me campaign. I think that no one knows anything until campaigns start. When campaigns get going, that’s when you really get a chance to see what people are about, and you get a chance to see where people are going to go.
It’s the old Mike Tyson line, right? Everybody has a plan…
Till you get punched in the face.
Have you talked to [Donald Trump] at all on the phone, by the way, in the last year or so?
Yes.
And what’s that like, in private with him?
Ironically, it’s really good.
He’s charming.
He’s very charming.
He wants to win you over, right?
He’s complimentary, but the problem is — you know, there’s an expression by a guy named Beanie Sigel where he says, ‘Your handshake doesn’t match your smile.’ And his handshake doesn’t match his smile.
It’s soft, a little clammy. Dead fish here!
For example, I called him after what happened in western Maryland with the flooding, which is almost a year ago, a year to the day. When that flooding happened, it was a disaster. Boats had to be sent up to the second floor of the schoolhouse to save children. And I knew we qualified for federal disaster relief. I put in for it, and we received a note back from the federal government saying, ‘Support for Maryland is not warranted.’ That’s it. So, I called Secretary Noem — when she was Secretary Noem — and I was a little snarky, but I said, ‘Madam Secretary, I just wanted to let you know that everywhere in Maryland is not Baltimore.’
What’d she say?
Nothing. ‘And the area that you just turned down support for, voted for the president by about 77 percent.’ And then I had a call with the president, and I explained to him the exact same thing.
You told him the same thing.
Yeah, ‘Mr. President, these are your people.’
What’d he say?
He said, ‘No, no, I hear you, let me go back and take a look at it,’ and da da da da da. And then we just get something back saying, again, we were denied.
All right, lightning round. A few big picture issues: President Trump’s going over to China, sitting down with Xi Jinping. What should the U.S. do if China invades Taiwan?
Well, the problem is that because of this ridiculous war in Iran, we have shown our cards and shown our hands in such a dangerous way, and I think we’ve lost a significant amount of leverage in two ways. One, we’ve lost the moral leverage. The second piece is, I think we’ve lost the military leverage.
I do believe that there is a support obligation.
Because we’ve moved weapons and supplies out of Asia, for example.
100 percent. And you’ve also shown your hand on what becomes your military capacity and what becomes the duration of that capacity. Because I do think that matters when it comes to all issues of international relations and international cooperation. And so I do think that there is a support obligation that we do have towards Taiwan.
What’s that look like? Is it military support?
I think it is military support, but I do think that this Iran situation has made it more complicated.
So it sounds like you’d wanna support the Taiwanese if there is an invasion across the straits.
But I think that we now have to be very honest that our cards are now shown, as to what that looks like and what that support is gonna look like. And we have to both be able to look at this from a short-term and a long-term perspective about: Where are our interests lined up, and what capacity do we have to be able to now have a multi-fronted military operation.
Did Israel commit a genocide in Gaza?
I think that it’s going to have to be international tribunals to figure that out. But I do think this: So I know what I know, and I know as a military person that you cannot use food as a negotiating tool. That is a war crime, and I think Bibi Netanyahu has committed war crimes.
Should he be in prison, do you think?
Look at it this way. And first of all, he’s actually under investigation and indictment already right now.
ICC.
That’s exactly right. But also, if you look at what’s happened in Lebanon, even just since the start of the Iran war, he’s annexed and taken over 10 percent of Lebanon. That, again, is a war crime. And so I just don’t know how we can continue tolerating these types of actions by Bibi Netanyahu. And not only because they are, they are illegal, but also because he’s not making Jewish people safe — he’s not making Israelis safe. He’s not making Jewish people in this country safe.
We’re dealing with such a rise in antisemitism, anti-Islamophobia, anti-Black. We’re dealing with such a rise of hate, and I see it every week because, as a chief executive, I get intel reports from the FBI, I get intel reports from our intelligence agencies. And so I see what is happening. Just a couple of days ago, we were dealing with a situation of an antisemitic attack in Olney at an elementary school. We have to be able to deal with this rising level of hate.
But the challenge that I have is I don’t know if Bibi Netanyahu actually believes that there should be Palestinian safety or Palestinian peace.
Do you consider yourself a Zionist?
I think that the state of Israel has a right to exist, but I also think that so do Palestinian people. We’re not putting a measurement of equality or measurement of priority on people. And I think right now, from what we’ve seen from Bibi Netanyahu, I just do not know nor believe that he is putting the same measure of focus on Palestinian lives as he does on Israeli lives.
If you had been in the House, would you have supported Steny Hoyer or Nancy Pelosi for Democratic leader?
Ha! Steny’s my guy, man. Listen, I love Nancy. Nancy’s a daughter of Baltimore, and I love her. And by the way — all the hustle and all the swag you see on Capitol Hill, that’s not California swag. That’s Baltimore swag.
Little Italy! That’s D’Alesandro.
Yeah, that’s D’Alesandro swag. But, Steny’s my guy.
All right. You’re with Steny, right?
I’m a Steny guy.
Is it true that Steny taught you how to do the Slide? Because I’ve seen some videos of Steny Hoyer doing the Electric Slide. He’s got some moves.
Let me tell you something. I pray to God that when I am Steny’s age, that I’m able to move and do the Electric Slide the way he can do it.
Governor Wes Moore, I want to commend you for no other reason than that you have put down most of that crab cake sandwich. The first participant in “On the Road” to actually practice what he preaches. You fully endorsed the crab cake at the start, and you’ve proven that you like this crab cake because you are housing that thing right now.
I approve this message.
