PHILADELPHIA — The calendar said May but the vibes screamed summer.
It was over 90 degrees outside Angelo’s Pizzeria, a South Philly takeout-only storefront that somehow is equally adept at pizzas and cheesesteaks. The Phillies had a weekday matinee, so by early evening there were lots of phans sporting jerseys, sunburn and a day-drinking buzz. And then, before some of them had time to venture around the corner in search of a water ice (pr: wudder ice), the skies turned dark and the party was temporarily broken up on South 9th and Fitzwater.
But only temporarily.
After the deluge, the line returned outside Angelo’s and the curb-top dining was back underway.
It’s hard to top Philly, isn’t it? It’s one of those cities — and I’d include Chicago and Boston in the same breath — where the local food, politics and sports cultures blissfully overlap.
So it was not the least bit surprising that when Gov. Josh Shapiro showed up for our “On the Road” interview, he was greeted by Angelo’s patrons with catcalls about, well, food, politics and sports. Good son of southeastern PA that he is, Shapiro seemed to enjoy the spectacle.
The governor wanted to go to Angelo’s: He was eager to show off the pizza, and my most trusted assets in the Philadelphia diaspora said it was the real deal. And I was convinced when I found out that it was just down the block from Sarcone’s Bakery, a Philadelphia institution that’s been putting out some of the best rolls in the city for over a century.
Now, the true Philly move would have been to conduct the interview outside. But that may have been a tad too lively after a Phils game.
So Shapiro and I went upstairs to what was probably once a walk-up apartment but is now a storage space for Angelo’s. We shared a cheese pie and talked about his new messaging on President Donald Trump, how he personally calls people on the phone when they’ve said something he finds antisemitic and the last time he saw Sen. John Fetterman in Pennsylvania.
And, yes, we discussed 2028 and Kamala Harris, plus why some of his skeptics are convinced he’s, consciously or not, doing a Barack Obama impression when he delivers speeches. For the full discussion, you can watch it on YouTube or listen to it as a podcast here.
And, no, I did not get Swiss cheese on my cheesesteak.
This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
South Philly, man.
Best pizza around.
You already heard that?
And everybody will give you an opinion about that out in the community here.
This is the best one here, though, you think?
Yeah, I get in trouble for saying that, but I think it is.
I know, you’re already making news! What’s the order, Gov?
Large cheese pizza, man, and I’m taking a bunch home to the kids.
I’ve interviewed a bunch of governors on this show. You’re eating more than all of them, which is nice. But nobody wants to cop to being a moderate or a progressive. Why have those labels, in your party, become stuff that you guys run from?
I’m not running from anything. I’m not sure I understand what any of that stuff means anymore. What I hear when I’m talking to people on the street in front of Angelo’s here in South Philly, or when I was at a diner a few hours ago in northeastern Pennsylvania with Paige Cognetti, folks aren’t coming over to me saying, ‘We’d like you to be a progressive, we’d like you to be a moderate.’ No, what they’re saying is, ‘We’d like to make sure we get our healthcare, we’d like our schools to get funded, we want more cops on the street so we can be safe.’ Those are the things I’m focused on every day.
But there are some dividing lines in your party. We saw it play out in this primary here in Philadelphia, in which AIPAC, which historically was a bipartisan group that supported pro-Israel candidates, came in and helped the candidate who wound up coming in third place, I think, and lost. Has AIPAC now become, in a Democratic primary at least, an anchor around some of these candidates, something to be avoided?
Yeah, I don’t know. And look, it’s never been an issue in any of my races at the state level. But I do think it has cynically been used by some — I’m going to make this a broad statement not about the race here in Philly — but I think it’s been used cynically by some to try and silence certain voices, to try and say that certain people participating in politics shouldn’t count or should be viewed in a toxic way.
Now, do I agree with every political decision they’ve made? Every endorsement they’ve made? Of course not. I think what we have seen is a weaponization of that, and I think that is a danger for our system. When you have people who are advocating for issues that they feel strongly about, and they are having their voices silenced, I think that’s a problem in our system.
There’s a blurring between being against AIPAC and being against Jewish folks giving money, you’re saying.
I think it does get blurred, because now what you are seeing is not “AIPAC money,” or however it was termed, but you’re getting the Jews who give to that candidate who also support AIPAC. I think it’s very dangerous in our system if you are trying to silence certain voices based on their race, based on their faith, based on their particular ideology.
Would you want their money? They being — to be clear — AIPAC donors.
I mean, look: I’m running for governor, and they don’t play in state races. I’m not trying to be cute about that, but it’s just not an issue here in my race for governor.
But this could be a factor down the road if other opportunities do present themselves, right?
Well, I’m not looking down the road. I’m looking at how we can win a reelection for governor, how I can help deliver for U.S. House seats and how I can finally flip our state Senate, which has been in Republican control since 1992. That’s what I’m focused on.
There’s also potentially a race here in 2028. Sen. Fetterman, who’s a Democrat, is up for reelection in 2028. Are you concerned that he may run as an independent and just skip the process entirely and create a real challenge for you guys in ’28?
I don’t know what he’s going to do. I think he said the other day he’s not sure he’s going to run again. He might run again, he might not. I mean, I don’t know. He’ll make that decision, and we’ll figure it out.
But doesn’t that create a challenge for you, if you have [him] either running as a Republican or an independent here? Complicates the race?
I’m going to give you the answer I gave you a moment ago. I’m focused on these midterms. And I’m not going to engage in a hypothetical before the guy even announces what his intentions are.
When was the last time you saw him in PA at an event, Sen. Fetterman?
I mean, probably years.
Years?
And I’m not saying he hasn’t been at one, but I haven’t seen him, and I’m at most things.
You get around a bit.
Yeah.
He was elected in ’22, so you probably last saw him at an event the year after he was elected, ’23, here.
Yeah, I mean, I could check if you need a specific date.
But just top of mind, you can’t recall seeing him?
I can’t.
That’s extraordinary, governor.
I mean, that’s a question you should ask him.
I have. I just talked to him a couple weeks ago, you may have noticed. He hasn’t come to events with the sitting governor of the state when he’s the senior senator of the state.
Again, I think that’s more of a question for him than me.
He has been outspoken on the Israel issue, obviously. And he’s gotten a lot of media attention for being one of the Democrats who has not, sort of, moved away from the Netanyahu government. Do you think his voice on the issue has been a force for good for the cause of the Israeli people and for the U.S.-Israel relationship?
I mean, I’ll just say what I think. He can speak for himself. I think Benjamin Netanyahu has been a destructive force, and I think he has undermined the relationship between the United States and Israel. And I would argue he’s isolated Israel in the world, which presents a real challenge for them.
Look, I view all of these things through the prism of what is in America’s national security interest, and I think having a president of the United States who gives a total pass and is a rubber stamp to Benjamin Netanyahu is not in America’s national security interest, and I don’t think it is in the interest of global stability.
Do you know him at all?
Netanyahu? I don’t.
Because he grew up outside Philly, obviously. Folks should know-
One town over from where my family and I grew up.
He was older though, obviously, than you.
Yeah.
Folks should know at home, though, that he’s not the most famous graduate of his high school. Mr. October is.
Yeah, that’s true.
Reggie Jackson.
That’s true. That’s a fun fact.
It’s an amazing American story, isn’t it?
It is.
Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr. October went to the same high school.
Yeah. That’s a good one.
This is a pretty comfortable spot for a lot of Democrats to be in today, which is, ‘I still support Israel. It’s important to sustain the relationship. They’re still an important American ally. My problem is with the government there and with Bibi himself.’ The challenge with that argument, governor-
Which, by the way, I’ve been consistent on for years even before October 7th.
I believe I recall talking to you about this.
Yep.
The challenge with that argument is — whoever replaces him, it’s not suddenly going to go back to the days of Rabin. There’s not going to suddenly be a peace process overnight. There’s no appetite for a two-state solution in Israel now, is there?
Well, I mean, ultimately that’ll be up to the Israelis to pick who their leader is, but I think that there is a responsibility of the U.S. president to force a dialogue about creating peace in the region. Let me explain what I mean by that.
I have long believed that we should have two states living peacefully side by side. A safe Israel that is recognized to have a right to exist by its Arab neighbors. A Palestinian state that is not under the rule of Hamas, a terror organization. And I would argue that we can’t just simply have peace between a Palestinian state and Israel. I think we have to broaden that out and be looking at the 20-plus Arab nations to try and create normalized relations there.
That is in America’s national security interest, and I believe that the president of the United States, and I believe our federal leaders, need to push for that. So while you sit here and say to me, ‘ah, there’s not really an appetite for that,’ right, there’s not really an appetite for that right now, particularly without the United States pushing that. But I think we need to change that dynamic, and we need to push for that. I think the status quo is not sustainable. I don’t think it’s in U.S. interest. I think we gotta broaden that out and be looking for a total regional peace involving all of those nations.
Should the U.S. government still be giving weapons as grants to Israel, or is it time for Israel to do what other allies do, which is pay for our weapons?
Well, I mean, I know there’s been some votes, and obviously I’m not a senator; I don’t weigh in on that. I don’t have access to the intelligence and the other things that those senators, in theory, are taking advantage of when they make those decisions to vote. So, I’ll just answer more broadly about it. I think you heard the answer from Netanyahu the other day, that they want to wean themselves off of U.S. military assistance. They want to walk away from that over the course of some number of years, and I think that’s a wise decision.
Let me ask you about the broader issue, which I find really concerning about the sudden mainstreaming, especially with younger folks, of comments and outbursts, frankly, about Jewish people. I’m sure you heard about Rand Paul’s son, who recently was in a bar in D.C. and started berating a Republican member of Congress who happens to be Catholic, but it doesn’t matter. That’s besides the point.
Yeah. Lawler, I think.
Mike Lawler from New York about ‘you and your people and you Jews and this.’ How did we get to the point where 25-year-old kids are drinking and saying that in a bar in D.C., a bar that you know from working in D.C.? Can you imagine that happening when you were a staffer there? Because you were there 30 years ago, 25 years ago. It’s hard to conceive, right?
Look, it’s an issue that I think about a lot and struggle with a lot, and I want to explain. First, I would say I don’t think that this is just a problem with some 25-year-olds in D.C. bars. I think this is a problem infecting the United States, and let me jump ahead to probably another question you’ll ask. I think it is a problem in the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. I think it’s a problem in our American politics, and it’s gotta be confronted. Part of what I struggle with on this is that on the one hand, I have this great privilege of serving the good people of Pennsylvania as their governor — traveling all across this state, visiting people where they are, as I have today — and I’m someone who’s very open about my faith, very open about what calls me to serve.
Have you ever, by the way, in Pennsylvania as governor, had somebody come up to you and say anything offensive or even mildly inappropriate about your faith?
Yeah, well, I was about to get to that.
Please.
What I am greeted by, even by people who disagree with my politics, is respect and tolerance for being open about my faith. And in many ways, it invites them to share more about their own faith and to share more about their own customs and their traditions. It’s a beautiful thing that I experience every day. Do I get antisemitic threats? Do we get messages sent to the office, all kinds of stuff online? Yeah. There’s two people behind bars for the threats that they’ve issued just in the last few months, along with the person that firebombed the governor’s residence last year, which you know about.
On the other hand, while I see this sort of tolerance from the people I interact with every day — people who have elected me every time I’ve been on the ballot, people who continue to hold me in good standing, as you pointed out earlier, about where we are in Pennsylvania — you can’t deny the fact that there’s been a dramatic spike in antisemitism across this country.
Why?
I don’t know what caused someone to spew that kind of hatred or to single out someone because of how they worship or how they were raised. But I know that it is a problem that we gotta confront in America. We gotta call it out.
Is technology part of it, do you think?
I think there’s no question that social media allows it to be spread much easier, allows it to target someone like me or others much easier. But, I think we’d be ignoring some of the broader issues… I think, sometimes, there’s a lack of education, a lack of understanding. I have found that when people say things that are blatantly antisemitic — not something that’s kind of on the border, but blatant — I will confront them. I’ll give them a call: ‘I saw what you said.’ And first off, they’re shocked that I reach out.
What’s an example of that? Who have you called?
There was someone who is a professional here in Philadelphia who, in a public forum, said some things that were perceived to be quite antisemitic and lost his position; it was a volunteer position that he was involved in. And I reached out to him and had a conversation with him. What I learned from that conversation is he felt the need to speak out because of the emotion he was feeling about losing a loved one in the Middle East.
At the same time, I think there was a lack of information, maybe a lack of education, that led him to say some of those things. It gets to the broader point here. I think we gotta do a better job educating young people. I think we gotta do a better job in our schools.
They’ve forgotten the Holocaust.
Not just the Holocaust, but even more modern history. And so, I think there’s just a lot more in education we’ve gotta do. We need leaders of both parties, leaders at every level, to call it out when they see it and to not give it a pass because it suits their immediate political need. Not give it a pass because it’s someone that they support or agree with or what have you.
We shouldn’t obviously ignore this time of rising hate. Also attacks and threats against Muslim Americans — we saw the attack at the mosque.
Which I condemn, and I’ve spoken out about that.
I know you have.
There is rising hatred and bigotry targeting people across the board. But it is also undeniable, and no one’s pain is greater or more important than others, but from a data perspective, there has been a dramatic spike in antisemitism that is unmatched elsewhere, and that’s a problem.
Congressman Thomas Massie in Kentucky loses his primary. Trump came after him. You know the backstory on that. He takes the microphone and says he tried to concede to his opponent, but he couldn’t reach his opponent in “Tel Aviv.” Was that antisemitic? Was it just inappropriate and bad taste? Did that bother you at all?
I mean, in fairness, I didn’t see it. I take your word for it that he said that. I don’t know if it’s antisemitic, but it’s using that thread, using that narrative to score a cheap political point. To get a like, to get your attention in the media.
And when you start doing that in a way that targets one group — Jewish Americans — you’re not only making Jewish Americans less safe. At the end of the day, you make all people less safe, because this is something I know to be true. When you allow one group to be scapegoated or targeted, you’re making every other group ultimately less safe. That has been true since the time William Penn set forth on the banks of the Delaware River, just a few blocks from here, when he tried to build a place that would be welcoming to people of all faiths. It is still true today that we’ve got to build a nation that is more welcoming to people of all faiths. Otherwise, everyone is less safe, and everyone is less free.
Well, speaking of safety, obviously you and your family were threatened at the governor’s mansion in Harrisburg last year. The person who firebombed the mansion has now been put in prison, thankfully. Does that episode give you pause about your own political future?
And I’ll just be blunt: When you think about running for president — which you will at some point after your reelection, I’m sure — are you hesitant to run because of the threat of assassination against you and threats against your family?
I’m not going to engage in the speculation you want me to about 2028, but I will answer your question about right now. My family and I spend a bunch of time thinking about running for reelection.
Because of that question?
Yeah. And, you know, it is hard for me as a dad to know that doing this job I love, this job I find great purpose in where I get to help people, puts my kids’ lives at risk. And so, we’re going to continue doing this work. I gotta be able to deal with that tug inside myself that I’m doing something that potentially puts my kids at risk, and I gotta make sure my kids and my wife are all in. And universally, our family voted to go forward and run for reelection so that the bad guys don’t win, and that’s how we all felt. And so, I really can’t spend time worrying about my safety. I feel blessed to have the Pennsylvania State Police with me, looking after me. A lot of people in this world, particularly in politics, don’t have that. I am blessed to have them with me. I’m not going to cower. I’m not going to be fearful and I’m certainly not going to stand down in my efforts to try to help people.
So those threats wouldn’t be an impediment for whatever your future may hold?
My future holds running for reelection as governor, and we didn’t back down from the threats.
Let’s talk about your party for a minute. Democrats, obviously, appear to be in for a good year, but you guys have profound structural challenges. You can’t compete for Senate seats in basically half the country. The 2030 census is coming. It’s going to move more states to red America. The Electoral College for you guys is a white-knuckle affair every four years: ‘What’s going to happen in Madison, and is it going to be big enough?’ ‘Hey, Philly suburbs.’
How do you guys become a majority party again? Because you’re clearly not that now, nationally.
We gotta be for stuff.
But that was Biden’s case, too: ‘We’re going to do delivery. We’re going to take care of people.’ It didn’t work, right?
Let me explain. I don’t deny the sort of math or map issues that you’re raising, particularly after the evisceration of the Voting Rights Act and the silencing of Black voices, particularly in the South, where you live. When you’re looking at this more broadly as a national election, not a congressional district by district, there are certainly some map and some math issues. But I think the way you cure that is to be for stuff. I think the last time our party had a big ideological battle where we decided ‘this was going to be our platform, this is what we’re going to be for,’ was 1992. And ultimately, that led to Bill Clinton’s election.
Was that a good thing?
Yes, I’ll get to that. And then, look at our next successful president: President Obama, someone I feel privileged to call a friend. And I mean this as no disrespect at all: I don’t think that was an ideological election. I think he was such a unique political figure that had a way of injecting hope and belief in our system and bringing people together. He won that victory.
It was a good year, too. Good cycle.
Then, our next successful president was President Biden, who in many ways I think was a reaction to Donald Trump and four years ago.
And Covid.
Yeah, and a bunch of things. But it was a reaction to that.
He was a vehicle.
Yeah. And I think we are now poised as a party to have what we haven’t really had for the last 30 years, and that is a big ideological debate: a debate not about left and right as we were talking about before, but about ‘what are we for, what do we stand for, what are we about?’ And I think that is a healthy thing. I think we need to do that. And I think if we do that successfully, that will lead to us being a majority party for years to come.
On the other side, you’ve got Republicans who declare their loyalty to Donald Trump, who drives them right off a cliff. And I think that he will not have staying power after he is done. The party that he has built into a reflection of him, I don’t think they’re particularly well poised to be able to win elections for years to come.
Both parties have to decide what they’re for in ’28, there’s no question about that. Do you think that your party should move on from ’24?
What do you mean by that?
Nominate somebody that wasn’t on the ticket in 2024?
Not to make it personal about anybody — I think what we need to do is look forward. I think what we need to do is have an affirmative agenda that’s different, that isn’t just simply predicated upon a reaction to Donald Trump. That’s what I think we need to do and that’s what I do every day in Pennsylvania. By the way, that’s what other governors are doing across this country right now.
But to be clear, you don’t think Kamala Harris should be the nominee of your party in 2028?
You said that, I didn’t.
I asked you.
No, you said that.
I was asking the question.
And I specifically said: not to make this personal about anybody. But I think anyone who is interested in being part of that conversation about what our party looks like, whether they decide to run or not, needs to be looking forward, not backwards.
So, it could be Kamala as long as she’s looking forward, you’re saying?
I’m saying that we need to be a party that looks forward.
I’m not trying to be a smartass here. I asked other Democratic governors the same question, and they say, ‘Of course I want to move on from ’24.’ Then when I raise the nominee’s name for 2024, all you guys get a little mousey on there.
I didn’t get mousey on you. You asked me a question about what I think. You said, ‘Do we need to move on from 2024?’ and what I believe we need to do is look ahead and be affirmative. It is no question that these midterms will be a reaction to Donald Trump’s chaos and cruelty and corruption. I also think it is important after these midterms that we look forward, we have an affirmative agenda and we do what I do as governor every day and what other governors do: We get shit done. We show people our work. We show them that government can be a force for good in people’s lives.
Taking yourself out of it for a minute, all things being equal, you prefer to have a governor as the nominee in ’28?
Taking me out of it, take a look at the seven swing states that Donald Trump won. Five of them are represented by popular Democratic governors. And then we’ve got two red states: Kentucky and Kansas, both represented by Democratic governors doing well. You see in these swing states, the states that tend to decide these national elections, a willingness to vote for Democratic governors even when they voted for Donald Trump. Why is that? Because these governors are delivering in schools, in safety, in economic development and a whole lot more.
So you’d prefer a governor then, as nominee?
I think governors know how to get stuff done and I think we need to be a party that gets stuff done, that delivers real results.
So, you’re obviously a formidable political figure.
I want to come back to this ’cause I don’t want my words to be misconstrued. There are a number of members of Congress who have really big ideas and good ideas who need to be part of this conversation about how we’re going to reshape our party. I’m not suggesting they should be excluded from that.
You want everybody in the pool.
For sure.
So, you’re a formidable figure, the leader of the Democratic Party in Pennsylvania. But why is it that Democrats in this state whisper about you, talk shit about you, oftentimes behind your back. You hear it all the time, even today: ‘Oh, ask him about his Obama impression, he sounds like Obama.’
What is it with you and your party here: Is it jealousy, is it envy or have you at times had too sharp elbows?
I’m proud of the fact, I’ve now run in three straight statewide races without a primary opponent. Democrats have rallied behind me to support me and to lift me up.
So the voters are for you.
I’m grateful for that. And I’m grateful for the strong showing we have. And look, I can’t stop somebody from saying something off the record to you, but I’m not bothered by it.
What’s your word for the haters? What do you say to that?
I really don’t pay much attention to it.
Okay. But the Obama thing, they say, ‘Oh, have you listened to this-’
I don’t know why people say that. I don’t hear that. I’ve been talking the same way, with the same speech, cadence, whatever, for years.
But you are close, I know, to the Black church. You go to a lot of services in the Black church. Is it less Obama and just the fact that a nice Jewish kid from Philly, for like the last 20 years, has been going to a lot of Black church services?
Spent a lot of time. And by the way, I wrote about that in my book, about the impact that the Black church has had on me — actually bringing me closer to my faith and helping me understand my own faith more, and the deep personal relationships I have with church leaders here in Pennsylvania.
We’re in a cynical age. 17 percent of Americans this month said that they believe the federal government’s trying to do the right thing. 17 percent of the country.
I’m actually surprised it’s not lower, given the leadership of Donald Trump.
But, we’re living through a moment that’s profoundly cynical, not just about the government, but every institution in American life. It’s not just a political issue, it’s a sweeping cultural issue too.
I agree with you. Because you have a president of the United States, even when he wasn’t president — really over the last 10 years — who spends every single day attacking institutions. You’ve got social media that gives more likes and more attention to people who are looking to tear things down instead of building things up. I think that we are culturally in a dangerous place in this country because we are looking to rip things apart as opposed to build things up.
To be totally candid, we haven’t had a president in a decade who could use the bully pulpit to articulate where he wanted to take the country. Whatever you think about Joe Biden or Donald Trump, that’s just a fact.
I think that’s fair and I think that’s been missing from our politics ever since Trump came down that escalator and was incentivized for the negativity. I think we need more aspiration in this country.
I think we can do bigger things, and I think we are stale as a nation because of Donald Trump’s leadership right now and in terms of being able to build big things and do big things. At the same time, more and more hate gets injected into our system with more chaos and more cruelty and more corruption because of the way he leads.
